Is a Generator that runs on Natrual Gas instead of gasoline a good idea? How long would Natrual Gas last in an emergency?

On the "big picture" you must check out this video on cyber warfare that directly effects the power grid and utility companies (including natural gas)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZUzB8uC9...

There are a number of people along the gulf coast that have installed natural gas generators and the two biggest issues that people don't really consider are: 1. the pressure needed to run the generator from the line, and 2) the volume of gas through a line is limited so the number of people (or leaks) in the system directly supplying your fuel.

The idea of using propane is very good since you control the amount of fuel based on the size of the tank(s) that you would put on site. Just remember that this is still temporary (either days, weeks or months) depending on your usage.

I watched a video online that showed a cyber attack on a reciprocating gen set and it took about 60-90 seconds before the unit was fryed based soley on the ability to turn on and off certain valves through the control system. Check it out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyWngDco...

Don't just worry about union thugs, there are many issues relating to resources, energy and the economy that you should think about if you truly want power over a long period of time.

One item I would seriously consider would be to store propane to run a generator.

Because propane can store for a long long time, a couple thousand gllons of fuel could last a really long time during an disruption.

I went down the same path. I had a 60KW generator installed. It's set up with an automatic transfer box, so it automatically turns on if the power is off for 20 seconds. If you do this, I'd recommend also getting a 1,000 gallon tank installed. It will run the generator for 11 days straight and it's easy to have a truck stop by and top it off. Even better, that tank can power a gas stove for several years' worth of use. It's one of those preparations that solves the short term problem of bad power AND provides a good amount of resilience should things get really tough. Some day I may even get a natural gas powered vehicle. Then that 1,000 gallon buried tank would provide even greater resiliency. 

I recommend you contact your local gas supplier, the folks who will bring the trucks around to top off your tank, and see what programs they have in place. Around here, they will subsidize the tank since they know that you'll be buying gas from them. Oh, and in my case I chose to have it buried. I wouldn't have done it any other way both for aesthetic reasons and for security reasons. 

We lost power for quite a long time during the brutal storm last year and again for a day or so this Winter. Having that generator made it a non-event while others were struggling to stay warm.

Good luck.

Thanks for the info guys.  I'll quickly respond to each.

ljhaines, the 60 minutes video was a hit-piece propoganda interview that was designed and written by the Obama administration to pass the internet killswitch legislation last year.  While the threat of a cyber attack is a very real one, the likelyhood of any of the major players capable of carrying one out is not very likely at all unless we were in a global war for survival with them.  Otherwise it would be in their best interests not to interfere since our economies are unfortunately intertwined for the meantime.  A very real and immediate threat is the Union thugs who have walked off the job during emergencies.  In fact, just days after I wrote this it happened in Hawaii where the Union workers walked off the job during a power outage: http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110305_heco_strike_1300_workers_walk_off_the_job_amid_outages.html  It will be happening more frequently as well as just normal employees not showing up if anything happens with the banks and people are not getting paid.

jpropane68, the generator I am looking into can do both but I think it needs to be modified a bit to do so?  (I gotta call Generac back after I write this and ask them what is involved.)  I wasn't going to consider buying a huge tank until I read the next post...

Ayala,  YOU CAN BURY THE TANKS????  I will definately be looking into that option then.  There was no way I'd be keeping one of those ugly looking tanks on the side of my house but if I could bury one in the ground, that's fine with me.  You bought a 60KW generator???  That is 3 times larger than the one I am looking at getting!!  Why would you need that much unless you have a whole compound or a 3 houses you are supplying electricity to.  If the kind of emergency I am expecting happens, I am not sure any trucks will be able to deliver any kind of fuel reliably.  So my main question remains:

If the power goes down and there is some sort of large wide-spread emergency, how badly would that effect the Natrual Gas lines?

OK just got done calling the LP Tank companies and Generac Generators and here i some data:

- My 20KW Generator uses 1.9 gallons/hour at half load and 2.9 gallons/hour at full load. (Pretty effecient comparing that to standard engineering estimates.)

- LP Gas on a floating contract is currently going for $2.59 a gallon  (Floating means I will not regularly be purchasing more.)

- An above-ground 1,000 gallon LP tank is HUGE!!!  It's 16 feet long and the tank itself costs $2,500 new.  (An underground LP tank costs more, they'd have to special order it so no exact price, and also requires a 18' foot long/4' foot deep hole dug, and lots of pipes and equipment, not to mention city regulations of placement.) 

- Since I live in a semi-residential area I'm thinking if I even decide to purchase one, it would probably be a small 250-gallon LP tank which would last me 3.5 days at full load and almost a week at half-load.  I'd have to dig an 8' x 4' x 4' foot trench for even the smaller 250-gallon but that might be doable?  I'm not sure on what the price is yet?

- AARRRRGG!!  Just looked at LP fuel "vaporization rates" and the colder it gets the 250-gallon tank may not be able to provide enough fuel per hour if the temperature drops below 3*F Degrees which could damage the engine.  However, if the tank was buried, I doubt it would ever get that low in the ground since my walkout basement stays at 61*F all year round.

- I could probably have a much easier time placing this in my backyard somewhere however, the LP gas delivery truck only has a 120-foot hose so that limits it to just the side of my house (permits permitting).  This makes me even more reliable on the natrual gas as a more stable backup.

I have a liquid fuel (gasoline) powered generator.  It runs on unleaded regular.  I thought about the propane/NG aspect for a while and picked gasoline.  I keep thinking If there is no major disruption then I can get some gasoline pretty much anywhere anytime.  If there is a major disruption then there will be a boat load of gas stations and cars and you name it that run on gas all over the place where I will be able to obtain gasoline.  I guess my thinking is gasoline is more abundant and easier to transport and store than natural gas.

As I understand, Sizing a generator is important from an efficiency perspective.  An idling generator is inefficient.

A 20KW generator seems likely to be too big, unless you are powering a large house with electric heat.

My house with 2 GEO heat pumps and an Electric Hot Water Heater would  top out at about 10KW draw.  However, in an emergency, I would not plan on using that much.  My thought would be to get a 5-10 KW Gen and cut back on load with wood heat or something during an emergency.

Re the Buried Tank.

Remember.  The tank is underground, so the propane will stay around 50degrees during the winter.  Also, a 500 Gal tank is not terribly expensive.  Much cheaper than a thousand gallon.

John

A few thoughts:

1. Everytime you change mediums from one type of energy you loose energy. Get a smaller system with a gas heater rather than use a gas generator to run an electric heater.
2. A single large energy source creates a single point of failure which can be a larger risk.
3. Diesel stored underground with the correct additives can last up to 10 years (from memory that was posted with a reference in these forums)
4. Firewood can last a very long time if stored properly
5. If it was me I would look at a much smaller generator and have another system like a wood stove with water heater. Handles cooking, heating and water heating.
6. In telephone exchanges we run two power circuits, one that runs on an emergency fail safe system and the other for everything else. That way if the power goes off and we are running on generators only the things that must be powered are. I suggest you audit your system and look at only getting a generator for the essential things. You might be able to reduce the size significantly.

I had an electrician trained by Generac come out to size my house for a generator.  17KW was the minimum I was told I would need because you can't run my "energy efficient" Air Conditioner in the summer with a smaller generator.  Granted I don't NEED A/C but for a short term emergency I'd want to maintain my quality of life.  If worse comes to worse, I don't need any power at all because I can handle the heat in the summer and in the winter I have a wood burning fireplace. 

Generators 17KW and below come with a selected circuit transfer switch where you pick which ones stay powered.  Stepping up to 20KW is barely any more money and you get the entire house.  Why bother picking and choosing when almost everything I'm powering is what I consider non-essential?

The GEO Heat pumps sounded like a good idea but I couldn't get anyone to give me a quote on that in the Chicago area and I was told that may be difficult to do because my yard is small and I already have buried stuff all over the place, water, sewer, gas, electricity...  The 500 Gallon tank would be nice but I simply can't fit it on the side of my house.  At this point I have almost given up thinking about burying a tank.

I've called NICOR gas company a few times now and they haven't answered my question with an engineer calling me yet.  I still want to know what happens to the main natrual gas pumping station if power goes out or in some sort of emergency.