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In this detailed interview, Chris talks with longtime ChrisMartenson.com member Dogs_In_A_Pile, an expert on nuclear energy who has been posting frequent updates to this site covering the developments at the Fukushima reactor in Japan as they have unfolded.
Based on his decades of experience, Dogs provides a detailed overview of how nuclear reactors work and then speculates as best he can (as the world is still dealing with imperfect information on the situation) how the technical situation at Fukushima likely degraded since the 9.0-magnitude earthquake hit on March 11.
This is an excellent discussion that addresses in depth many of the questions asked on this site over the past week: How does nuclear energy work? What caused the explosion of several of Fukushima's reactors? What is 'decay heat' and why is it so important here? What's the likelihood the situation will be brought under control soon? What dangers should - and shouldn't - we worry about?
Many thanks to Dogs for bringing a knowledgable and rational voice that helps demystify the haze of incomplete (and often erroneous) information that has been circulating in the media around this tragedy.
Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Dogs_In_A_Pile (runtime 1h:14m:56s):
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In this podcast, Dogs addresses:
- How nuclear energy works
- What type of reactors are at Fukushima
- The different between 'core' and 'spent' fuel and the importance of 'decay heat'
- The likely progression of the breakdown of events following the 9.0 earthquake
- The difference between radioactivity and contamination
- How events at Fukushima are likely to progress from here
- How concerned people should be (both in Japan and elsewhere) about the effects of this disaster
- What preparations are prudent at this point
Click here to read the transcript
Dogs_In_A_Pile is an expert in the nuclear field: he is a retired navy officer with over 20 years experience, most of that on nuclear-powered submarines. He is a certified nuclear engineer, which means he is certified to operate, maintain and oversee nuclear facilities. He also has extensive expertise on nuclear weaponry. He is a longtime and highly-appreciated member of the ChrisMartenson.com community.
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- Jim Rogers
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Chris, Dogs: Thanks for the info.
"FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- More foods are showing traces of contamination in Japan, where radiation has been leaking from a damaged nuclear plant.
Japan's Health Ministry says tests have found excess amounts of radioactive cesium (SEE'-zee-um) on canola and chrysanthemum greens. And some of the produce came from areas where contamination hadn't previously been recorded.
The government previously halted shipments of spinach from one area near the nuclear plant and raw milk from another after tests found excessive levels of radioactive iodine.
And Tokyo's tap water, where iodine turned up Friday, now has cesium as well."
Chris, Dogs: Thanks for the info.
"FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- More foods are showing traces of contamination in Japan, where radiation has been leaking from a damaged nuclear plant.
Japan's Health Ministry says tests have found excess amounts of radioactive cesium (SEE'-zee-um) on canola and chrysanthemum greens. And some of the produce came from areas where contamination hadn't previously been recorded.
The government previously halted shipments of spinach from one area near the nuclear plant and raw milk from another after tests found excessive levels of radioactive iodine.
And Tokyo's tap water, where iodine turned up Friday, now has cesium as well."
sax - It was my pleasure to help...
Everyone should understand that this is going to be a major issue going forward. What is being detected is particulate radioactive contaminantion spread by the steam venting, explosions and possibly the fires at the site that settled out on to the greens. Much of this contamination has also settled on the ground where growing plants will pick it up in their root complexes and distribute it within the plant.
Animals that graze on these plants will also deposit these radionuclides within their bodies and/or pass along in their milk. This is going to have significant repercussions for at least 5-6 generations.
Peace - DIAP "Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away."
The transcript is now posted above.
Thanks for that interesting discussion - still many puzzling aspects with too little information to sort it all out. They are going to use some SDF tanks with special radiation protection as buldozers to clear rubble from around 3 and 4 - still pretty hot in the area it seems. They also say that the pressure rise in unit 3 has stopped short of requiring them to vent again -for the moment.
This is the best clip of the explosion at #3 I found - shows the initial flash right at the beginning of the clip and then the massive plume accompanied by three explosive reports:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ&feature=related
Whatever happened at #4 was pretty violent - maybe even more than one event as I recall reports initially of "a hole in the roof and a hole in the wall ' that were too small to get much water into, but recent pictures show the roof in ruins. Can't believe oil fires or even gas bottles could come close to causing that kind of damage.
The IAEA reported that holes were made in the roofs of units 5 & 6 to prevent the buildup of hydrogen as a precautionary measure:
http://www.iaea.org/press/?p=1463#more-1463
The fact that contamination has already affected tap water, green vegetables, and possibly milk I find worrying.
history rhymes
Latest IAEA report:
http://www.iaea.org/press/?p=1526
Says that contamination is from iodine, no mention of caesium.Also says that they still have no direct way to measure temperatures or water levels in units 1-4 fuel storage pools (radiation levels too high still is my guess). White smoke present but diminishing, continued seawater spraying, and core pressure stabilized or falling at unit 3 so no need to vent. NHK is also reporting this:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_23.html
history rhymes
I’m half way through this excellent interview and pausing for a break. My knowledge of reactors is basic, but I’d like to share some thoughts that others may find helpful. A major reason for the confusion many feel is that terms are not defined in various reports, and they are used interchangeably and incorrectly. I will try to clarify a few basics, and I welcome corrections as needed. Look at the illustration at the top of this thread.
Reactor vessel – This is the red cylinder in the center. It contains the fuel and control rods, and is made of very strong and thick steel. It is the “pressure cooker” where the nuclear reaction takes place. Super hot water is piped out to provide power and cool water is piped back in.
Containment structure – This is the thick reinforced concrete structure, shaped like an upside down light bulb, surrounding the reactor vessel. I think the torus (donut) below it is included in this structure. This is for safety in case the reactor vessel is breached.
Reactor building – This is the square building that surrounds them. It includes the storage pool for spent fuel, pipes, pumps, sensor, controls, etc. It appears to be designed so the top portion can blow off without damage to the containment structure, the reactor vessel, and essential systems. However it does expose any spent fuel in the storage pool surrounding the top of the containment structure. This type of explosion can be clearly seen in photos of reactor building 1, with the steel framework exposed and a neat line of intact walls lower down. This is entirely different from the damage to the other reactor buildings with massive damage to the lower parts of the building.
The confusion – Try to keep the above in mind regarding any reports you receive.
* I have seen” the containment” refer to the metal tubes containing the fuel pellets, the reactor vessel, the containment structure, and the building. All of these have a containment function, but only one is the containment structure.
* “Primary containment” has been used to refer to all of the first three.
* “The reactor” has been used to refer to the building. An explosion of the top of the building is very different from an explosion of the reactor vessel containing the nuclear reaction, even if it is “shut down” and slowly going dormant.
* Many of the reporters plainly don’t know what they are talking about and loosely parrot terms that give the most dramatic effect to their story. In many cases we simply can’t assign even a tentative definition to their terms, so we can’t have any confidence in understanding what is happening.
Having a clear idea of the three structural elements above is essential to understanding. For some people I’m just restating the obvious, but I think there are others who will find this helpful. Now back to the interview.
Travlin
You can always trust your government -- to do anything necessary to preserve itself. Travlin
Not sure if this is the place for this questionsto mods feel free to move this.
I did a brief google search for a list of imports from Japan to the US and all I could find was a short list of...
vehicles
electronics (tv's, components, etc.)
tea
I think that's about it. So my question is, can some of you internet savy information sleuths find a more detailed list of what we import here in the USA from Japan? Being that some people coming off of recent flights from Japan have set off the radiation detection systems as well as radiation contamination in Tokyo water, I thought it might be a good idea to start thinking about imports in general. I have a feeling this will be information MSM or our .gov will not be sharing with us for a good long while ;)
Thanks in advance
RG
Thanks for the interview guys. It was very helpful to hear information directly from a real expert that we can trust.
Travlin
You can always trust your government -- to do anything necessary to preserve itself. Travlin
Arguably no one has more data and experience with nuclear testing and the effects of radiation fallout than the United States, much of it right here at home – in Nevada. Perhaps an inclusion of this data in the discussion, for relevancy, would be useful.
Also, if anyone happens to find themselves in Las Vegas and tires of the neon and debauchery, a few miles off the Strip buried in an unobtrusive shopping mall, is the Atomic Testing Museum (in association with the Smithsonian) and is well worth the diversion. The story of nuclear testing in Nevada is an important story, and it helps place current events in context.
Link
I'd like to add a little more information I am privy to. My chosen field is also Nuclear power and my specialization of the past 15 years is in Radiation Protection (with an additional 5-year stint in Operations)
The Earhquake/Tsunami:
My understanding is the intial plant response to the Earthquake was as expected. A complete loss of offsite power is anticipated since the distribution system is not siemically qualified (not earth quake proof). All or most of the Deisel generators fired up and provided ample power for shut down equipment.
The sea wall surrounding Daichii was ~7 meters. The wave that hit the facility is reported to have been 8-9 Meters high. So not only did the water spill over and take out the deisel generators (which were working post quake), but also some above ground fuel tanks are reported to have been swept away (I'd guess it was the DG Day tanks).
I suspect the wave, which continued to flow several miles inland, subsequently created a veritable swimming pool around the site where by the entire site sits in meteres of standing water. If the site is like many here in the US, (including mine) then most of the Emergency Core Cooling pumps, some buses, critical valves etc sit at levels near or below the site ground level. So when I envision what the scenario the plant operators had to contend with I'm thinking they would have to deal with water intrusion and outright submersion of anything at ground level (plus 15') and below. Many plants (but not all) have water tight doors around critical equipment but i cannot imagine any systems that would remain operable under these conditions. When i think of all the contingency equipment that would be affected by a site submerged in this much water i can only gasp.
If you had submerge pumps you'd have essentially a compromised flow path (your not going to get much past an idle impeller) even if you were to restore power. An electrical pump is not going to fire up after being submerged. I'm wondering if the choice to go to seawater was as much a flow path issue as it was a water source issue. Sea water injection is the last chance option and in many cases involves the used of portable deisel pumps aligned to direct flowpaths into the core. We will know soon enough but I suspect this might be why.
My background is in PWR's and we have steam driven turbines that can assist in a compltete loss of power. I suspect a BWR would have the same and I'm wondering what happened to this alternative.
The explosions:
The explosions in #1 and #3 were due to venting of the gas mixture from the core containment. The explosive mixture is largly due to Hydrogen produced from the steam/oxygen reaction withe the hot zirc rods. Zr + 2(H2O) (steam) + heat —-> ZrO2 + 2H2. A simpler explanation is Steam + High Temps + Zirconium = Hydrogen.
The fire at the Spent Fuel pool in #4 , as I have been told, was due to oil from a pump being used in that area. It was not a Zirconium reaction, or at least what I understand.
I am told the Pool at #4 lost inventory due to the debris that fell into it due to the exterior walls being damaged and dropped into the pool as a result of the explosion at #3. This lost inventory shortened time to boil and the debris i suspect blocked make-up flow paths so that the pool could not be filled and recirculated/cooled using normal means.
The Fallout
The fallout hazard is a big questionmark. As Dogs in a Pile mentione iodine is a hazard since it concentrates in the thyroid. However it has a short "half life" and will cease to be an appreciable hazard after 60 -100 days. If you have fuel damage and a breached core containment so that there is nothing to inhibit it's release into the atmosphere then you could get a deadly combination of airborne an airborne release of fission products eminating from the fuel. So the feared combination that produces an un mitigated release is where you have degrading fuel and a breached core containment. If you have one without the other the situation is much less severe.
I think releases to date have been to alleviate pressure in the core containment structure. These releases probably would have went into a secondary vessel (the reactor building??) and then through filtration. Recall the explosions at #1 and #3 happened as a result of this vent into the secondary vessel where the Hydrogen formed an explosive atmosphere. In my mind that calls into question any filtration ability of the #1or #3 core containments. Again this could still be a **relatively** less severe issue if the core containment remains in tact and fuel degradation is not an issue. There is a third possibilty that there exists a filtration flowpath is not connected to the secondary pressure vessel flowpath which remains viable. Such design characteristics are likely but whether they are operable is another question.
The information I have received only leaves Fukushima #2's core containment in question. I actually heard it is feared to be ruptured.
Reports I have heard put the airborne contamination from the site at very low levels as they relate to immediate health effects. I have yet to hear actual numbers but my impression is that the contamination is a combination of nuisance contamination and perhaps also short unfiltered concentrated "puff" releases that should dilute quickly (still not good, but far from worst case ). The best case scenario is where core material is largely contained and subsequent releases are filtered and pose little contamination hazards. My gut feeling is that the actual levels experienced will be closer to the best case scenario described above, versus the extreme other end of the spectrum which is what we saw from Chernobyl.
The severity
Time will tell on this one. One thing to keep in mind; radiation is VERY easy to detect with instrumentation. Therefore when you hear reports such as "iodine found in Tokyo drinking water" we should not automatically assume the worst is upon us. We are able to detect Cesium, Iodine and a host of other radio-nuclides as extremely trace levels. Their presence alone tells us little as to the severity of the accident. Their concentation, however, would tell us much more. We would then be able to postulate such things as unihabitable zones, delayed health effects, viable food and water supplies, etc. I will update the site with this information if and when I get it.
At this stage the governmental authorities WILL advise the public to take preventative measures. They have not advised taking Potassium Iodide (used to prevent iodine uptake in a severe accident release) which leads me to believe the worst case has been averted so far. As each day passes decay heat diminishes. Hopefully we are entering a recovery phase and are no longer contending with degrading conditions at Diachii.
Caveat : There is an information vacuum. Nothing I've said above is absolute and some of it may turn out to have been inaccurate. i'm just sharing what i know.